Report of his interview
with Sandra Pickinpaugh

On June 30, 1990, SALDATE interviewed Debra Milke's sister, SANDY PICKINPAUGH. SANDY was pregnant and her father insisted that she tape record the interview with a view to not having to testify at the trial.

The interview lasted three hours; six days later, SALDATE would produce an eight-page 'narrative' report [in a suggestive contrast, Debra's half-hour interrogation yielded six-and-a-half pages of material]. The tape ran out about halfway through the interview. The forty-page verbatim transcript of the taped part of the interview corresponds to about the first three-and-a-half pages of SALDATE's summary. A comparison of SALDATE's report and the actual transcript shows some startling details.

After stating the time and place for the record, the interview begins. The transcript shows the interview properly began with :

Mr. Saldate: When was the last time you talked to your sister?
Sandy: My son's birthday, November 11th.
Mr. Saldate: November 11th of?
Sandy: '89
Mr. Saldate: Did she call you?
Sandy: Um-hmm.
Mr. Saldate: What did she have to say?
Sandy: Well, she called to wish Jason a happy birthday and also to tell me about the results of the hearing. I guess Mark had filed some kind of papers to try and get joint custody of Chris and she had just attended the hearing the previous week. And was really happy because the judge denied him joint custody and she just was really happy about it. Because he didn't get any part of the custody.

In SALDATE'S report, a completely invented remark attacking Debra's character was added to his version of the opening exchange: "Sandra said that the last time she spoke to her sister was on November 11, 1989. She said she called her to wish her son Jason a happy birthday. Sandra said this was strange because usually Debbie didn't think of anyone else and didn't really understand why Debra had called. During this conversation, Debra told her that a judge had denied joint custody to Mark at a recent court hearing."

SALDATE then began to talk with SANDY about her family. After talking about her mom and dad, the conversation touched on MARK and Debbie. Talking about her father's anger toward MARK, SANDY makes one of her few positive comments about her sister:

Sandy: They'd been at odds with each other -- typical, I think any father would probably react, not even talking about the murder, I mean. My sister is a very attractive person. She's very intelligent and my parents had a lot of aspirations for her, you know, a lot of plans for her, you know, and Debby did real well until my mom up and left...

This comment did not make it into SALDATE'S report at all. The interview had not yet produced anything more he deemed worth including. The transcript shows that after more discussion of the family history, SALDATE begins to discuss the murder with SANDY. Debbie had first met her roommate, JIM STYERS, a few years previously when he lived in the same apartment complex as SANDY. JIM and SANDY were friends. SANDY sensed that JIM was attracted to her. Her personal view of Debra and JIM'S friendship was formed by both personal knowledge and evident jealousy. She explains that she never saw any signs that things were not right with JIM in the weeks before the murder. This, she says, surprised her, as she and JIM were good friends. SALDATE then asks her about Debbie and JIM, and SANDY gives him something he can use :

Mr. Saldate: What was Debbie's position with Jim?
Sandy: Well, I (inaudible). She was never as close to him because my sister didn't have any friends. The only time she ever called people was when she needed something and she's always been that way. She does not have friends. She never had friends...
Debbie has never had any true friends to her name. It's just people that she's acquainted with that when she needed something then she calls then she calls them up (inaudible), you know, and Jim was one of those people...

So, about twenty minutes into the interview, SALDATE has finally gotten the first animadversion about Debbie. In his report, this comment is presented as immediately following the first-fictitious-criticism of Debra, and is contrived as the answer to a question that SALDATE never asked: "I then asked Sandy if she could tell me about any of Debra's friends. She immediately responded that Debra did not have friends. She explained that Debra will call upon people when she needs something but that they are not really her actual friends. She said that for the most part, she was getting Jim to do everything for her."

As a final touch, the last sentence of the paragraph above is badly misstated and far stronger than what was actually said.

The transcript shows that SALDATE now was able to prompt Sandy to start trashing her sister :

Mr. Saldate: Okay. This is the impression I got. Correct me if I'm wrong... I've talked to some people that knew Debra. They referred to her as very materialistic.
Sandy: She was.
Mr. Saldate: Would you believe--
Sandy: Oh, yes. Very materialistic, very, very selfish, self-seeking, self-centered. Very very vain. Conceited, I mean, just greatly conceited about herself as far as outward things like her appearance or things that wanted or pursued she got. She knew it early.

Good stuff, just what he is looking for. Only one small problem: the description was prompted by SALDATE - he fed Sandy the first adjective. But in writing his report this is no problem at all. He just presents Sandy's description as completely original:
"I then asked Sandra if she could describe her sister and she said she could. Sandra then said her sister was, in her words, materialistic, selfish, self-seeking, self-centered, vain and conceited. Sandra said this may sound as if she did not like her sister, however, that was not true. She said she loves her sister but that she has come to realize what her sister actually is and for the most part, she feels sorry for her."

The third sentence of this paragraph is almost completely made up. In the transcript, several minutes after the previous exchange there comes:

Mr. Saldate:... And I could sit here and look at you and I know this is difficult for you saying things but if someone else was to listen - or someone else (inaudible) that I'm on the opposite side. They would say well, Sandy must really hate her sister... That's not true though?
Sandy: No, it's not true.

This simple "no" answer to SALDATE'S leading question becomes SANDY'S "spontaneous" comment in the third sentence. The last sentence of the paragraph, "SANDY'S" explanation, is completely from SALDATE'S imagination.

This mainly invented statement, though, allows SALDATE a great deal of 'narrative flexibility.' In his report he can continue to misrepresent SANDY'S rambling responses to his leading questions as her spontaneous, coherent responses to simple and fair questions. Indeed, the next paragraph of SALDATE'S report begins
"I asked her if she could explain and she said Debra was an expert at manipulating people. Sandra said that she was her main target during that period of time because as Sandra described herself, she was easy."

These two sentences are simply invented by SALDATE to introduce the next two paragraphs, which are an "improved" - that is, inaccurate - summary of SANDY'S comments about Debbie, MARK and CHRIS. The second of these paragraphs contains yet another invented statement by SALDATE -
"I then asked her about the time Debra went to Colorado presumably to get her act straight. Sandra just chuckled and said that was a joke."

We are now near the bottom of page two of SALDATE'S report. The next-to-last paragraph there is SALDATE'S version of...

Mr. Saldate: Master of deception, master of -
Sandy: Yeah, master of deception to she's a master of manipulation... Debra has a way with people. She... makes people feel so sorry for her that they are going to do just about anything. And, I mean, right down to - I couldn't even put a limit in what they would do for her...

SALDATE'S restatement is :
"Sandra went on to say that her sister is a master of deception and manipulation and that she has a certain way with people. Debra can make anyone do what she wants them to, even though they may truly know Debra. Sandra then said 'There is no limit what a person would do for Debra.'"

SANDY did indeed make the first statement, although yet again SALDATE misrepresents it as spontaneous. The first part of the second sentence is misleading, making SANDY'S statement sound much more damning; the second part of that sentence is, unbelievably, still another product of SALDATE's 'narrative imagination.'

The last statement of this paragraph is especially noteworthy. At Debra Milke's trial, SALDATE explained that while his reports are "paraphrased narratives," the statements that appear there in quotes are, in fact, exact quotes-statements he is repeating with special attention to accuracy. Many of the "exact quotes" in SALDATE's record of Debra's "alleged confession" were very damaging. And, here, we have one of SANDY'S 'exact' quotes - though it is scarcely exact. It is yet another statement 'improved' by SALDATE to make it far more damaging to Debbie. SANDY'S musing that she - SANDY - can't think of the limits of what people would do for her sister turns into the condemnatory statement that SANDY knows that there are no limits to what someone would do for Debra.

As misleading and inaccurate as SALDATE's report has been already, we now reach his most outrageous lie. SALDATE is not just there to take SANDY'S statement - he has a definite goal. The claim at Debra Milke's trial will be that she convinced her roommate, JIM STYERS, to murder her son. By a combination of leading questions to a willing witness and deceptive renderings in his police report, SALDATE now has the 'facts' that Debra is manipulative and deceitful, has no real friends, and is just generally a bad person. The interview now reaches SANDY'S view of her sister's relationship with JIM. To explain how Debbie Milke can have JIM STYERS so much under her control that he would murder a child at her suggestion, SALDATE has a definite idea of sexual manipulation.

SALDATE begins to work on SANDY'S ill will toward her sister, in particular, her jealousy of Debbie's friendship with JIM. He mentions that JIM has been sending Debra lovelorn letters while they are both in prison. He suggests that perhaps there exists a letter from Debbie to JIM in which she promises to be with him when they both get out [ - there is in fact no such letter.]. This suggestion does catch SANDY'S fancy - yes, she says, that's how Debbie gets what she wants.

The time is ripe, SALDATE thinks. He offers SANDY an explicit idea of how Debra might sexually manipulate JIM :

Mr. Saldate:... And I'm sure (inaudible) maybe you can tell me. Like you said the gestures and things that she did (inaudible). But it would not surprise me if she would get up accidentally, you know, quickly run out her bedroom or something like that (inaudible) or be something --

Much to SALDATE's disappointment, no doubt, the idea of her sister 'accidentally' being seen in a revealing state doesn't really strike a chord with SANDY:

Sandy:... That's not Debbie. No.
(... )
Sandy:... Like I said we always did consider Jim such a close friend that he never looked at us in that respect, you know, a woman... You're talking about Jim and you've got to realize that Jim has always meant to us just like a father actually a surrogate father. We never thought about it.

Unable to get the desired response this way, SALDATE moves on to another tack. He suggests that during his interrogation of Debbie, she tried to seduce her way out of trouble by flashing her breasts at him :

Mr. Saldate:... So me and her talking and I'm telling her I'm not going to tolerate that. She's not going to do it. She - dress looked very nice. She wraps the front of her blouse and she pulls it up to her eyes, she didn't have no tears, to wipe her tears away but she didn't have any.
Sandy: (Inaudible)
Mr. Saldate: Which quickly exposed her (unintelligible). I didn't really pay that much attention to - I knew, you see, my job, in my position I knew what she was doing to me... But see, I'm there for information, okay. And she's like trying to see if I -
Sandy: It's working.
Mr. Saldate: It's working. If he's looking at my breasts then I may be able to talk myself out of this. Okay. So that's what I'm telling you. That's the type of manipulation she does. She loves that...

After Debra was arrested, KIRK FOWLER, court appointed investigator for the defense, had to pick up her clothing that she was wearing when she was arrested by SALDATE. From top to bottom, she had:

• a bra,
• a T-shirt and
• a cardigan sweater,
• panties and
• blue jeans,
• socks and
• tennis shoes.

• pull up her sweater, then
• pull up her T-shirt (which was tucked into her blue jeans) and then
• pull up her bra.

But this prompting of SANDY still doesn't work. It only shifts her attention to how fascinating observing Debra has always been for her. So SALDATE has failed to get the statement he wants from SANDY portraying her sister as a soulless vamp. But - for him - this turns out to be no problem at all. In his official report, he just makes up the statement out of whole cloth, including an entirely fictitious 'exact quote' :
"... Jim went on to tell her that she was already doing it and taking advantage of her. I then asked Sandra why Jim would let her do this and Sandra replied that she was sure that Debbie would probably lead him on, tease him and pursue intimate thoughts with him. Sandra said she was sure that Debbie would never have slept with Jim but then said 'I'm sure she would have given (sic) him enough food for thought to make him do anything for her.'"

Not too long after this part of the interview the tape ran out, leaving SALDATE's 'narrative' as the only account of what happened during the rest of the interview. With both versions available on print as a part of the original court records (the transcript of the interrogation - half of it) and this report, SALDATE'S techniques in twisting statements, falsifying and fabricating allegations can be proven without a doubt. We expose the original report of SALDATE to the point where the tape ran out and the transcript ends. Until that point, direct comparisons can be made and discrepancies can be highlighted.

The report had entered Debra's trial and Levy referred to it, asking Sandra Pickinpaugh:

Mr. Levy: Do you recall being interviewed by Detective Armando Saldate in Wyoming?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yes, I do.
Mr. Levy: Have you reviewed his report in preparation for your testimony today?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yes, I have.
Mr. Levy: Did you find any errors or inaccuracies in his report?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: No, I didn't.
( ... )
Mr. Levy: And are your statements in here appear to be accurately so stated?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: Yes, they are.
Mr. Levy: What I meant was, does this appear to be like "Question, Mr. -- Detective Saldate; Answer, Sandra Pickenpaugh," that kind of format?
Sandra Pickinpaugh: No, it was more that he just took down what I said exactly.

But that's simply not true, because - looking at the report - we are able to uncover SALDATE's techniques in using various phrases made during an interrogation and putting them together with complete falsifications to make them appear the way he wanted things to look. It's the exact same way he did it with Debbie's alleged confession, which hardly anyone believes has taken place at all. But SANDY'S false testimony and SALDATE's lying report show something else : they confirm that SANDRA PICKINPAUGH was an unreliable, prejudiced witness who gave untrue testimony to get back at her sister Debra Milke. SALDATE's report was not what SANDY 'said exactly'; it was a falsified narrative of the interview twisted to make it say what SALDATE wanted it to say.

These proceedings resulted in another fatal assumption of the jury members: they were led to believe that SALDATE was a trustworthy cop, and tended to believe his statements and testimonies, instead of the defense. By putting on SANDY'S testimony, the prosecution covered up SALDATE'S lies and misrepresentations to make him look trustworthy. This proves that SALDATE'S tactics with lying and falsifying were instrumental for the prosecution to accomplish a trustworthy appearance. SANDRA had personal motives, which have already been described in detail.

As with the transcript of this tape we analyze the report in order to make you, the reader, realize the lies and allegations made, the points contained in here that conflict with the initial transcript and therefore are pure fabrication.

ON 6-30-90 AT APPROX. 1207 HRS (UTAH TIME), I CONTACTED SANDRA PICKINPAUGH IN HER HOME AT 755 RIVERVIEW DRIVE #4 IN GREEN RIVER WYOMING. THE PURPOSE OF MY CONTACT WAS TO INTERVIEW HER IN REGARDS TO THIS DEATH INVESTIGATION. THE FOLLOWING IS A PARAPHRASED ACCOUNT OF HER INTERVIEW.

SANDRA AND I DID NOT HAVE TO BE INTRODUCED BECAUSE WE HAD MET PREVIOUSLY IN PHOENIX DURING THE INITIAL REPORT. WE WENT INTO SANDRA'S KITCHEN AND SAT DOWN AT THE TABLE AND I EXPLAINED TO HER THAT I WANTED TO SPEAK WITH HER ABOUT HER SISTER DEBRA MILKE AND THE SITAUTION SURROUNDING THE DEATH OF HER NEPHEW CHRIS MILKE. SANDRA AGREED AND THEN GAVE ME THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION.

Discrepancy #1 : As stated with the analyzed version of the secret tape, SALDATE and SANDRA PICKINPAUGH had not met prior to this interrogation. SALDATE just repeats this allegation in this report.